Thoughts From The Peacock Angel
|Professional avenging bitch goddess, lifestyle feminist barbie doll/cartoon wet dream.
Ex-Glam Rock groupie happily married to an Elvish prince, living a life of decadence. glamour and quiet domesticity in an old house in an old city on the East Coast.
This is no place for minors.
|Him:||. . . not everyone with a womb is a woman? I understand that in instances of transgenderism this may be the case, but who decides these things, and who agrees that decision is valid?|
|Uh, I'm talking about being inclusive to trans people, which is really important in terms of being a good feminist at this point. Trans women are denied access to women's shelters and often end up dead because of it.|
|Trans* men are invisible and treated like failed women, or "Lesbian ultra" even when they're not.|
|Non-binary people get endless bullshit from the government and everyone else, and you have the audacity to ask "Who agrees that decision is valid" when people are DYING because of their gender identity?|
|As a non-woman womb haver... please go read even the tiniest bit of information on trans* people before you make such an incredibly ignorant and offensive remark.|
|TL;DR it should pretty clearly be the person who's gender it is who gets to decide if their gender is "valid" or not.|
|Ugh, I do get irritated at people who claim to be social-justice warriors who use their own special language and then feel offended when someone has the "audacity" to use plain English. You're just bitching at me because I'm a dude. So what. If THIS of all things scares you, the concept of actual pan-gender egalitarianism must be petrifying.|
|Someone just busted out their uber-colossal-social-justice-feminist vocabulary, "intersectionality" "womb-haver" "great big fart noise!" SPEAK ENGLISH! Making one sentence reply to ask "Please, explain more what you mean" and then getting petulant reactionary sign-waving in response? COME ON! Hell there's a feminist sitting right next to me on the couch who thinks that essentially everything you said was utterly retarded! (and I use that word unashamedly, as I'm sure the male/female gender ratio for the mentally handicapped is roughly 50/50). People like you are the reason the world doesn't take egalitarianism seriously because of the fringe that constantly shines a spotlight on the social problems that EVERYONE WHO IS DECENT ALREADY HATES!|
|In short, I agree with the first poster. Feminism in 2012 is a desire to be totally and undeniably equal in all aspects of life. Women should have as much control over their own bodies as men do over theirs. This is accomplished not by destroying the very concept of gender, or by forcing laws to reflect others, but by simply respecting and loving people no matter what they choose to call themselves, and NOT BY THROWING A FIT EVERY TIME SOMEONE DISAGREES! THIS IS AMERICA, WE HAVE THE FREEDOM OF SPEECH! THE RIGHT TO DISAGREE! and the sooner we recognize that for every human and trans-human being (yes, they do exist), the better. Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong.|
|Also the term "trans-humanism", basically "beyond human" refers to the philosophy of people who see technological advancement as the next stage in human evolution. I myself am a trans-humanist and hope for the one day when we all evolve to the next level and then these problems won't exist anymore anyway.|
|Me:||Actually it's because you're cis and just made a really transphobic remark. I'm a dude sometimes too, so um, yeah, no, considering the fact that I'm trans, I'm allowed to be personally offended by your ignorant bullshit and yes, we do have freedom of speech and the right to disagree, which applies to me as much as it does to you, meaning I have the right to think your opinion is transphobic bullshit and to publicly criticize you for it.|
|Me:||Not everyone with a womb is a woman.|
|Random Dude:||. . . not everyone with a womb is a woman? I understand that in instances of transgenderism this may be the case, but who decides these things, and who agrees that decision is valid?|
|Me:||THE PERSON WHO'S FUCKING GENDER IT IS, DOUCHENOZZLE|
|Me:||The amount of race-fail I have encountered today is astounding. I mean come on, straight cis white guys really shouldn't be trying to write novels about the experience of racism... because they suck at it|
|Him:||Is it perhaps a little ironic that you reference the gender, orientation, and race of someone to justify their ability to do something?|
|Me:||Privilege matters (unfortunately) if you have no experience of discrimination based upon immutable qualities you'll probably end up with a mighty whitey saves the day case of bullshit.|
|Him:||Privilege is a blanket term to throw over any entire gender, race, orientation, or any other group of people; it doesn't really do anything to resolve a specific point of contention and I don't think it adds a whole lot to any debate. It comes off more as a way to disqualify someone's opinion on the basis of things that should have nothing to do with it's validity.|
|Me:||No, that's not what privilege is. Privilege is a way of describing the fact that there are certain things certain groups just don't experience the same way others do (due to systemic oppression) cisgender men for example will never experience street harassment the same way women and people socially coded female do. So when some douchebag guy says "I'd love it if some girl yelled vulgarities at me from across the street" it fails to take into account the fear and threat inherently associated with being catcalled for women (and people read as women)|
|Him:||What privilege is depends on who I'm talking to and what point they're trying to make. In any case - let's use the example of fear of sexual assault - using the word "privilege" adds nothing to the point and risks alienating the group of people it's directed against.|
|Saying that a "cisgender man will never experience harassment the way women do" excludes the experience (or potential experience) of someone on nothing other than the typical experiences of members of their social group. It stops treating them like a person and starts treating them a representation of their group, which is what I think we'd want to get around in the first place.|
|Me:||No, privilege is a defined piece of academic jargon that often gets misused, and you know what? I have never met a cisgender man who got street harassed the way women do. It's a big picture term, because in order to combat systemic oppression (systemic is when it's ingrained in the culture so deeply you can barely tease it out from what's inherent) you have to look at the big picture. Treating individuals as individuals on an... individual basis is all well and good, but we're not talking about that. We're talking about the fact that I earn .75 cents on a cisgender man's dollar, we're talking about the fact that thousands of women die from eating disorders every year, we're talking about how many times more likely it is I'll be raped than you, we're talking about how the average lifespan of a transgender person worldwide is 22 years, we're talking about the fact that you have a statistical advantage at pretty much everything. This doesn't make you a bad person, this doesn't mean you're not allowed to talk in debates about this shit, but you have to think before you speak and educate yourself because YOU DON'T FUCKING KNOW WHAT IT'S LIKE. You have to take the time to imagine what it must be like to know X about the way the culture treats your group, and the way that effects your behavior and perception of things.|
|Him:||It can be defined all it wants; in fact, it seems to have defined many times.|
|The 75 cents to every dollar difference has been talked about time again. When you actually control for things (choice of career, hours worked, overtime, education, etc), instead of looking at gross income, that different drops to maybe a couple cents (3 to 5, if memory serves) if it exists at all. No one is surprised when a female doctor makes more than a female retail worker, but for some reason people are surprised when a male doctor is making more than a female retail worker.|
|Men are also more likely to die younger than women, die of violence, and lately, it seems less likely to get into college. More men are shut out of sex altogether, relative to women, which is pretty important to most of them. I think they're almost more likely to be homeless. However, it's not as if this is a war of the sexes as for which one is most advantaged. Just because some people are statistically advantaged, relative to others, in certain categories doesn't tell you about them as a person or their experiences.|
|But yes, people do tend to experience different things on the basis of their gender. Men are no better at knowing about women's experiences than women are about knowing men's, I'd guess. Maybe you've never met a guy who's been harassed in the some of the ways that women tend to be; as you pointed out, some men would probably find that same "harassment" as being rather pleasurable, so they'd be hard pressed to relate to that experience. On the same token, women are probably equally as unlikely to be harassed in some of the ways that men are, and would have trouble relating to those experiences; women probably have an equally hard time understanding why men would be interested in being viewed as sexual object.|
|To simply state "you don't know what it's like because you belong to a different social group", again, does nothing for your point. It's just dismissive for no good reason. Tell someone they're wrong because they're wrong, not because they're privileged. Otherwise, it comes off like it's OK to judge someone on the basis of their gender, race, or orientation (or whatever), just so long as you're judging the "right" group.|
|It would be like me telling you because you're a rich white woman, you shouldn't really be making judgments about the experience of non-white, non-rich, non-female people. You shouldn't have anything to say about the experiences of a poor man, or a black woman, because you just don't "get it".|
|Me:||1. That study has long since been disgarded as the data was falsified.|
|2. Testosterone'll shorten a life span, that's not oppression, that's biology honey. When you correct for race in that instance however, white men are less likely than white women to die of violence|
|3. No, I can totally see why men would want to be viewed as sexual objects, honestly I'd fucking love street harassment if it wasn't for the threats of violence, the nastiness, and general ownership it suggests over my body. Also please keep in mind that I'm not always a woman.|
|4. Here's the thing, when a privileged person is wrong, it's not just that they're wrong, it's that explaining to them that they're wrong without explaining the fact that they don't experience prejudice in that area DOESN'T ACTUALLY EXPLAIN HOW THEY'RE WRONG. Also I'm not rich or a woman. I will admit I am upper middle class, which is privilege and I cannot speak to the experience of poverty (which is why I don't try unless someone who has that experience invites me to do so), and I am most certainly not a woman (I'm having a man day today thank you very much). And I also can't speak to the experience of POCs, because I'm white, and I don't try (unless invited to). However, I do know what racism looks like and because I'm a decent human being I try to be aware of it and check my white privilege when discussing race. Also, me not being being able to speak for the experiences of poor people and POCs IS EXACTLY WHAT I'M SAYING|
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